Thriving in the Age of Disruption

Season 3 - Episode 9 | Harnessing the Power of Our Networks and Technology for a Sustainable Future: Dr. Katia Chaban (USA)

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra & Dr. Katia Chaban Season 3 Episode 10

Dr. Ramesh explores the powerful synergy between people and technology with Dr. Katia Chaban from the USA, to enable innovation so businesses, people, and the planet can thrive. With 25+ years of global IT leadership experience working with Fortune 500 companies, Dr. Chaban shares her unique insights for companies to integrate sustainability into their business models through innovation, collaboration and circular economy principles. 

Dr. Chaban emphasises the importance of an entrepreneurial mindset, resilience in the face of crises and building empowering networks. Whether you're passionate about sustainability, tech innovation or women's leadership, this episode offers a compelling look at driving positive change through innovation, education, collaboration and purpose-driven action to progress sustainability.

3 Key Insights from this Podcast:

  1. Leveraging Technology for Sustainability: Dr. Katia Chaban found her niche by analysing the IT sector's growth and its projected impact on global emissions. Identifying a significant gap - the lack of IT-focused sustainability strategies, and drawing on her extensive IT experience and education in sustainability, she is uniquely positioned to bridge this gap to create impactful tech-driven solutions.
  2. Community Connection and Thriving: There is deep fulfilment and meaning in contributing to one's community, as building connections and giving back enriches both personal and professional life, providing a greater sense of purpose.
  3. Women in Leadership: Dr. Chaban shares her experiences and challenges as a female leader in the tech sector, offering valuable lessons on overcoming barriers, mentorship and inspiring other women to lead.


Host: Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra, Author, Podcast Host, Founder of Talent Leadership Crucible & Founder of Impact Velocity

Guest Speaker: Dr. Katia Chaban, Founder & CEO of ReThinkIT Strategies; Adjunct Professor at University of Maryland Global Campus


Tune in, and together we'll be Thriving in the Age of Disruption. 

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Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 00:00

Welcome to the Thriving the Age of Disruption podcast series, Katia. I'm so excited to meet you.

 

Katia 00:06

I'm excited too, thank you.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 00:07

Excellent.

 

Katia 00:08

I'm honored and excited about this. Because I've listened to several of the podcasts that you've put together, I do a lot of walking and hiking, and they were energizing. And they were really interesting to get very broad perspectives. But knowing that you're Asia specific, I'm honored that you're including me, you know, here I am in Rochester, New York, it's 5am. And so, to be part of this network, it's really exciting. So, I really appreciate it. 

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 00:36

Oh, you're welcome. You're someone who actually has a wealth of experience and expertise, which is relevant for Asia and what we're dealing with. Actually, we both met in Bangkok last year, it is really a great opportunity. So, let's dive in to have you introduce yourself to share a little bit about yourself what you do professionally, your personal life.

 

Katia 00:58

So, I like to always start out my personal section with the fact that I'm on a mission. And that mission is to harness the power of people and technology to enable innovation so that businesses, people and the planet can thrive the triple bottom line, but that's a really important focus for me, I spent a lot of time in corporate America over 25 years in IT outsourcing supporting very large, fortune 500 companies from a technology perspective and business transformation perspective globally. And that chapter of my life was focused a lot on supporting clients, but really, it was around cost optimization. So how much can you do for less and continuing to cut, so being in it, it was always a lot of pressure, right? To continue to cut. 

 

Katia 01:44

So, I created this mission statement in this kind of new chapter, a new focus of mine, because I want it to be more than that, I want it to be focusing on things that are much more purposeful. So, as I evolved out of those 25 plus years in IT outsourcing so work for big companies, EDS, HP, NTT DATA services, I went back to school and obtained my Doctorate in Business. And that's where I fell in love with Sustainability and sustainable business practices and the circular economy and all of these important concepts and of course, going for a doctorate the research associated with it. So, you're looking at the data in the impacts, it was so mind opening, that I said, “Alright, this has got to be a lot more purpose.” 

 

Katia 02:25

So now I'm taking all of that business and IT experience in my little company called Rethinking Strategies, and all of my now certifications and education from a Sustainability perspective. And I believe I have a unique skill set that can help bridge business it and Sustainability. So that's really what I'm focusing on. And we're doing consulting advisory types of services. But then on a personal note, very active in my community. I have been a competitive rower for over 20 years. So that's been my sport. And so, I have a wonderful community here. I'm part of something called the Rochester Community Inclusive Rowing Club, where we focus on veterans and those with challenges, and we get them out on the water. So, I'm privileged to be able to share my sport with people that otherwise probably never would have been able to get on the water and get in one of these boat and coach them and show them how to get on that water and enjoy that healing that the water brings. And I guess unique and interesting is I have been coaching since 2008. At a local high school here Aquinas Institute, the boxing program. That's a really interesting program because that we focus a lot on fundraising for things like Parkinson's, but we also focus on raising money for the missions in South America and being able to do good there. I'm very proud of that personal component of my life.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 03:49

Wow, that's really great. I think we've got several touch points and several different ways in which we can go. So, I'm going to ask you the first question, which is around entrepreneurial mindset, because I feel that in today's VUCA world, one of the key mindsets is an entrepreneurial mindset. And I define that whereby one is being resourceful as someone who is resourceful, you're able to look at a problem, and really spend enough time to define it correctly. Because if you do so, at least half the problem is solved. The second part of it is that you are able to deal with uncertainty and take risks. And the third piece is to create value. And when I listened to your journey, whether it was from corporate America working in IT and business outsourcing to then going on to do your doctorate, and now looking at how you want to work in the sustainability space, or even the projects that you do with fundraising and the rowing project, right, because it's all about creating value. People sometimes think that an entrepreneurial mindset means that you go out there and start a business and run it but it's far from it. It Someone who is able to be resourceful in any situation, if you can just share with us what your journey has been like, where can you see that these things showed up? The mindset?

 

Katia 05:12

This is a really interesting question. Because working in corporate, there's a lot of support that's already there. So, I was never part of sales, I didn't have to go out and get clients, I had to do enough and quality work to keep clients marketing and getting out there. And selling that was not a skill set. So, this journey, moving from corporate into, alright, I want to do something, I have an idea, when you talk about problem, we start to look at the metrics, and the data associated with sustainability. And then on my journey, I started to hone really in on specific areas of sustainability, because it's such a broad topic to figure out where I could best fit, that was a journey. And that was a lot of learning. And that was obviously risk taking in opening up a business and not being part of corporate where you've got your stability as far as your paycheck. But it was really trying to figure out how do now I do this, when I don't have these experiences, what do I need to do to educate myself? Kind of networking? Do I need to do what resources even questions on? How do you set up your business from a legal entity and all of those things, and I think one of the biggest lessons that I learned and this journey has been just maybe over a year is that there's so many people, and there's so many resources for help, it's something that you can reach out and ask for help. 

 

Katia 06:38

And people are very willing to be able to do that. So that was an important learning on this journey, there's support out there, it has been an interesting journey for me, because I will say from a risk taking, right you know, you've got your bills to pay and your mortgage and those types of things. I also am focused on my mission statement and want to do good. So, you keep moving forward and trying to figure things out and how you do things, I wanted to do sustainability, it took me a while to get to the area that I now know that I need to be focused on. And that's sustainability in information technology. When you look at data in the US in 2023 information technology spent it was $1.3 trillion, that's just in the US. And that number will grow 4% annually. And then you look at statistics that say the IT industry will be the cause of over 20% of global emission by 2025. And then you look at surveys that folks like Gartner or Capgemini have done on who has sustainability strategies, and in whose including information technology or their IT footprint in them, it's a very low number. And there's just not skill sets in it that are also mapped up to sustainability. And so, when you spend that time looking at the data and researching the problem, you can really home in on what that problem is. And then to solve it, I have all of this IT experience I have now all of this education, awareness and experience in sustainability. And I can help bring those things together. Now, is it something that everybody is aware of? No. Is it something everybody cares about? No, there's that risk taking. So, you have to be out there talking to people and socializing it and creating that awareness. It can be scary, because it's not a concept that a lot of people in particular in the US are really familiar with or wonder if they need to care about. And here I am, push that agenda that it is something that we need to care about, because I am so passionate about it. So, I like to call myself a, I guess a social entrepreneur trying to do good from an environment but also a social perspective.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 08:48

You created for all of us your journey into entrepreneurship, and what it meant about validating that idea that you had and how you brought your own experience, your education, and then that mission that you had created around how you want to make an impact. What was interesting was that you didn't give up you have to ideate and iterate to find that really key niche area that you wanted to focus on when you describe how the IT sector has got a limited footprint and awareness around the impact to carbon emission and lack of sustainability in terms of how they are looking at their processes, and that it's about 20% of 1.3 trillion market that surprised me because it's almost Wow, you're in this blue ocean space because you're in that space. A lot of it has to go with education because that's the opportunity that you have, you know, not many people are in it, and you have the first mover advantage if you can go out there and get your services to people.

 

Katia 09:58

That's what I can tell not only myself, but the other important thing on that journey is also that networking, right? So, when you identify, a problem is talking to people and trying to understand practically you got your academics and your research, but then realize what those problems are, and be able to bounce those ideas off a lot of smart people. And one of the things that was apparent to me early in my journey is I had a great IT network. So, I had a lot of folks that I had built relationships with IT supplier software suppliers. But I didn't have anybody in the sustainability space, what became very apparent or not, is I have to build this network, I have to start doing the scary thing and reaching out to complete and total strangers to understand what they do, why they do things to help build what I need to understand to be able to create and finalize that mission. We have a common friend, Dr. Nisha Kohli, who was one of those people that I had met, here I am in the US, I reached out to somebody the other side of the world, they gave me their time to talk to me. 

 

Katia 11:04

And she gave me some really great advice, which was around moving into more of a consulting type of role, because that's an area where you can experience a lot of different industries and a lot of different problems instead of just being honed in. And then of course, the opportunity to come to Thailand and present my research and meet folks like you and get on the stage and do fireside chat was just an incredible journey. And that was all part of building that network. And what I found recently is there is the small number of people that believe that there is a problem from a sustainability it that are trying to be proactive but creating that awareness and education. So, I'm know I found some likeminded people. And that's really exciting. Because I know I'm not crazy. I know that there is a problem there that smart people also agree that there's a problem. And now I have resources and folks that are supportive of yes, we need to go and do this, we're gonna go and change the world in this particular state. So that networking in that reaching out in that growing that network was super important on that journey.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 12:09

What's your definition of Sustainability? In our consulting practice, we say that Sustainability is about the ongoing thriving of any living system. We start with the people's mindset, because if they can't own it, then everything else doesn't matter. And that's all focused. What's your focus? And how do you define Sustainability?

 

Katia 12:28

I kind of look at everything through this circular lens focused on the circular economy as a framework. So, I start with Sustainability. If we have that mindset, and if we have those business practices in place, and we're doing the right things, we're eliminating waste and pollution, we're regenerating nature. And we're circulating or keeping products and materials in their lifecycle for much longer, versus this throw out type of mentality that we have in the world today. So that's the awareness ponent of it. So, for me, it's those three principles that are really Circular Economy principles that are super important. That's how I start those conversations and using that framework, and then it reaches out how do you get to those things, and it is the mindsets and it's changing our behaviors. But it's enabling things through things like technology, and education and awareness, government regulations, right. So, it spawns out to a whole bunch of things that need to happen for us to be successful. But it starts with really those three Circular Economy principles. 

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 13:29

Thank you so much for that. From this, I like to move on to another mindset I feel is also important in this VUCA world. And that's what I call as a crisis ready mindset. And you know, I define crisis as any kind of setback or even sometimes a failure. And how do we react in that moment? Do we fight too we freeze? Do we flee? I'm sure you've dealt with these setbacks and failures in the course of your life, personally, or professionally, or even the journey when you had to come out and start your business. What do you think was some of the enduring practices that you had developed over time that supported you to be successful, to move beyond that setback?

 

Katia 14:13

I'm really blessed. I look at this crisis resilience and being able to adapt, where there's four different categories. One is really the psychological and mental state, my emotional state, my physical state, and then social and community. I am really lucky to have a fantastic community I talked about as I've gone on this journey, and I've had days where I'm thinking, what am I doing? Is this really going to work? Am I going to be successful at that? So, you have those downs, I've had the ability to be able to turn to that community and do things where I know I can be successful. I'm helping people and that balances out that kind of negativity that enters your mind every once in a while, and from a physical perspective, because I am so physical, it's really important. And people I don't think take advantage of enough is go and take that walk, or in my case, go and row or go and punch a bag, and it's getting those endorphins. It's getting those happy juices back in your body to get over those moments where you're really questioning why you're doing something. So, if you've got those support systems and those mechanisms, that's really helpful. So, there are days, still, when I think back to the decision of leaving corporate world that was 2021. And I think to myself, what have I done? Was that the right decision, don’t ponder it, you can't change the past. So just focus on the present. And then I come around to Yes, because you haven't been this alive and aware and passionate about something for a very long time. And this is the right path for you to feel to wake up in the morning and have conversations and help people and create and drive awareness and do the things that you do and feel good about it. That's the right path.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 15:55

That's really great. What you've talked about is be able to leverage on an area where you are successful. And in your case, you've actually built good networks with community, which empowers you, and the work that you do with them is so satisfying. That even on the bad days, that's that rainbow that you have, right? The center to Gilman number two is that do you call out the need to stay active and physical. Because when we do that, whether it's with a walk, or rowing or boxing, it gets us active and back into the game. The third piece is about staying present in the here. And now you don't look back not look too much into the forward because then you just focus on what you need to do. And what I took away from all those conversations is that somehow, you're actually having positive affirmation for yourself, you're reframing. And you're also using the power of your purpose or mission, you're not start to keep you on track in that journey.

 

Katia 16:56

And it can be scary. It can be like you said, you can't change the past. And you're not going to alter the future. Just focus on the now and what you can do and the things that you need to be doing and the people that you need to be focusing on you.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 17:09

When you were in IT 25 years ago, I'm sure there weren't as many women as possible. What sort of advice do you have for young women leaders who want to go into science and technology and IT and I'm sure even now that they're not represented equally?

 

Katia 17:24

Yeah, they're not. There was an article I started to read, even yesterday about trying to advance the number of female CIOs, leaders and really focusing on the girls and females that are going through their STEM in their education. We're not there yet. I think it was my second day at a big IT company. And I started my career in Toronto. I was born in Canada. And so my initial education and career started in Toronto, I remember walking in to the environment that I would be working in, I was managing a helpdesk a technical helpdesk and supportive a customer, very exciting, scary, and a gentleman stood in the door, and it was the oddest thing. He looked at me, up and down. It's very uncomfortable visual, and he said, you took my job. That's a long time ago. 

 

Katia 18:12

And that got ingrained in me it was this reaction that firstly, there was fear, and there was anxiety. And then I took that and said, this is my job, right? So, I started to really focus. Well, what's that? And why was that? How do I approach it? So, I was very lucky, because at the time, the CIO of my client, very large, global manufacturing was a female. And the President of EDS at the time, was also female. So, I was super, super lucky to walk into an environment where two high powered females were there to be my mentor to be my guide. And a lot of people don't have that today. And it's super important to find those mentors and those leaders, but also to understand what is it that you need to do and so this interaction with this gentleman really made me focus on I'm going to manage this organization, I'm going to do it by data. In fact, I'm going to create an innovate, I'm going to make this the best place for people to work, I'm going to help make this client successful. All those things go through your mind in response, so instead of shriveling up, and oh my gosh, what have I done, I took it as a as of this empowerment, I got this, and I am going to do my damnest and I became CIO at vertex I think was 47. And at the time, when I looked at the statistics, there was less than 15% of female CIOs in the US and when you looked at the ages of the CIOs in the US at that time, it was gentleman all plus 60. Look what I just did tick, and we need to make more women leaders be successful and do this. And the only way to do that is to lead mentor so I spent a lot of time mentoring both women and men, what I found interesting in the common theme when I was mentoring professionals, and even today, I do a lot of mentoring with MBA students and entrepreneurs in the climate tech space. It's that lack of confidence. And I go back to my original story where I, for a short second, lost all confidence because of that particular interaction. And then I grew it back. And so when I talk to people, and I work with people, and the advice that I give to people is, if you are lacking that competence, either you realize it yourself, or somebody is pointing it out to you, you have got to work on that you have got to figure out what the cause of that is, and resolve it. And whatever that issue might be, you need to have that confidence to step into a boardroom, you need to have that confidence to do a client presentation, you need to have the confidence to ask the hard question. Because if you're not doing those things, you're not going to make change, you're not going to make an impact. And so, you've got to have that confidence, it can be hard.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 20:59

When you would challenge you to ownership of that job. That's your job. Because you're sitting there in that chair. Number two is that you call that something really important about mentorship. And to be able to find someone in the organization who can support you in your journey, maybe clear some roadblocks, you were lucky absolutely to have both the client and the boss be both female empowering mentors. But sometimes we may not find that person so easily. But it's for us to still look around and see who can empower us in the organization. And the third piece is really building our confidence and not to be scared and to just stop, but to look at whether it's going back to school, reading staff talking to people, but we've got to do something to build up our confidence. 

 

Katia 21:48

Well, we all have to realize is you can't take things personally, if I had led that interaction be personal, then I probably wouldn't have been successful, right? It would have eaten at me, that was a business section in a business workplace, let it be business. And if somebody's providing you advice, and they didn't like what you presented 100% It's not personal, take it as you're going to make improvements and move forward. So, I think that's the other thing, especially as women, sometimes we do take it more personally, and you just have to know you're in a workspace, if somebody makes it personal. That's another type of issue, right? That might be an HR worry. But in these work transactions and conversations, don't take it personally, it's advice it's input, it might be criticism, and might be hard to hear, but just take it and figure out what you need to do next. 

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 22:36

Great. So now I want to move on to a new topic. And that's about spirituality. I wanted to find out what your view about spirituality and where are you on the journey?

 

Katia 22:45

So spirituality, for me the ability to constantly learn, and the ability to accept, I do that through education, I do it through traveling, experiencing different cultures, you know, go back to my Thailand experience, those things for me are what feeds my spirituality is that constant learning and that constant acceptance, everybody's different cultures are different, but they're unique and beautiful. And you may take things from different cultures and adapt your lifestyle, I think, where am I on that journey I'm on and I'm not at the beginning, I'm not at that end, I will always continually learn, look at and try the food and try this and try to speak the language to embrace and understand and accept. It's funny because the school that I coach at is a Catholic school. So, there's a view of spirituality and Catholicism, the religion there. But what I love about them is more thinking about is there a higher thing, not a higher being but what's that higher purpose. And it's that constant learning, right? That experience in Thailand at the conference was so amazing. Because typically, if you go to a conference here in the US, all US people may be some Canadian, and there might be a spattering of different nationalities, different countries in the room. When we were in Thailand in that room together, I think there was two or three Americans, and then people from all over the world. And we were talking about challenges and issues and successes and doing some celebration of successes and discussing how to resolve challenges in Vietnam, of Singapore of various parts of Europe, those viewpoints I would have never ever received sitting here in the US. It was so amazing to be part of those discussions and be able to learn from all those different people from all those different parts of the world. It just made me a better person. And I think that from a spirituality perspective, that's important. It's just continuing to make me better with that open mind and accepting light.  

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 24:47

I totally get that from what you've described. It's about that connection to that bigger purpose, right? And if you stay open and keep learning and inquiring, then you got that access. At any moment to be able to connect, and that's so important beginning of this year, I did a 10-day silent meditation Vipassana meditation, one of the key insights that I had was that we're dying. We're closer to death every day, if you knew you were one day closer to death, how would you live? What would you change?

 

Katia 25:19

I'm not sure I would change; I might spend more money on something. If I knew I was gonna die sooner, maybe I wouldn't be so penny pinching about things and get on that plane to go to my next trip to go to Vietnam or wherever. 

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 25:33

Yes, please.

 

Katia 25:35

I would love to. But I don't think there's really anything mentally or physically that I would change, maybe a little bit less streaming of some Netflix things at night. But sometimes you just have to, you just need downtime, your brains on fire all day long, and you're talking and then you've got your community involvements, and you've got family, and you've got it. So sometimes you need that downtime. But no, I get up every morning. And I have that purpose. That's why having that mission statement was really important to me, because that frames my actions every day, what is it that I pointed to what did you change.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 26:08

I saw that in all the areas of my life, whether it was finance, relationship, health I could do something more because I lived like I had all this time to do everything in a thing whenever I wanted to. But that was not true, because there is a tradeoff that I'm making every moment. And that trade off also has consequences, both positive and negative. When I looked at both the positive and negative, then some of these things, were not consistent with what I say I want to have, when I'm 80 years old, sort of done damage to let's say, my health, by not taking those breaks, I wanted to take or having a very stressful time. And then I saw that as much as it is a struggle, I really have a choice about how I choose to do things. And so one of the first things that I've done this year is to organize with my mother who was 80 I actually went through the program thinking, you know, what if she died, because I'm really enmeshed with her, and how will that separation happen? And I thought, okay, you know what, maybe I can take her to Australia and the US and London where she's got siblings, we'll spend two weeks every two months in different locations, spend that time when they are around, rather than just show up for a funeral. So that was a chain. So that was what I've done. So, I'm going to Australia in April, I'm going to the UK in June, and in September somewhere else, but that's what I've decided to do. 

 

Katia 27:43

That's great. That awareness and recognition. You know, I'm going to take your question and ponder on it more.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 27:49

Okay, great. If you had to use three words to describe thriving, which three words would you use.

 

Katia 27:56

Happy. 

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 27:57

Happy.

 

Katia 27:57

Educated, sharing. And what I mean, by sharing is just that I think thriving, for me is the ability to share not only from an entrepreneur and a business perspective, but me and what I do in community. It's constantly being able to share thoughts, ideas, my time, but one of the resources that you have, and educate in more than just a formal certification when I coach at Aquinas, these kids are grade seven to grade 12, here in the US, and they teach me things all the time. First of all lingo, because their lingo changes all the time and words for things, right. We're always laughing about that, but they make me a better person, right? Because when you're dealing with these kids of these various ages, they're dealing with so many things as well, they may have ADHD, or those types of issues, there may be problems at home. And so, you have to make sure that you're understanding that of your kids, but just sharing your time. That's why they're there. And they appreciate you being there for them. So, I think that's thriving, and being able to share that with people and continually learning.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 29:07

That's cool. Okay, I'm going to ask you some quick questions. Don't overthink it. What's your favorite book?

 

Katia 29:12

Any Harry Potter book.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 29:14

And your favorite travel destination? 

 

Katia 29:16

Thailand.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 29:18

Come to Vietnam and then maybe you might change it. Now, if you can have dinner with anyone in the world, who would it be?

 

Katia 29:24

Henry Cavill. He's a British actor. And he played Superman but and he's played in a lot of different roles. But he's a self-proclaimed geek. There was one cut that I saw of him in an interview, and somebody says, oh, I was on Wikipedia. And I learned blah, blah, blah. And we're talking to him, and he turned around and said, you get your source of information from Wikipedia. And I just thought, how interesting because come on, broaden your awareness to other sources of information and that one quote, made it very interesting, very handsome individual.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 29:57

Thank you. And what's the most unusual food that you have eaten or tried? 

 

Katia 30:02

Testicles?

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 30:03

Oh!

 

Katia 30:03

Bull testicles.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 30:05

In Spain?

 

Katia 30:05

No, it was in Nebraska.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 30:08

Now if you can have any superpower, what would it be?

 

Katia 30:11

Invisibility, because then I could go around and spy on people.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 30:14

What's the best advice that you've ever received?

 

Katia 30:18

This was easy because this was just recent. This is so funny. I have a boss from the early 2000s. And we send Christmas cards every year, he wrote on my Christmas card this year, he asked me, “How was your journey with Sustainability? And remember, Sustainability is an evolution, not a revolution.” Because I'm so action-oriented and goal-oriented, that advice to me, actually helped me stop and think, “I can't change the world in 24 hours. I can't change people's minds in 24 hours. This is going to take time, but it will work. Just focus.” 

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 30:58

Beautiful. That's really beautiful. It's an evolution and not a revolution. Wow. Excellent. 

 

Katia 31:04

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 31:04

Katia, thank you so much for spending the hour with me and sharing of your life and your journey. I look forward to seeing you in Vietnam. 

 

Katia 31:13

Yeah.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 31:14

In some other conference in Asia when you're here.

 

Katia 31:16

Thank you. Sometimes you wonder if what you're doing is important or interesting. You know, those are questions and little demons that you might have in your mind and having these kinds of conversations with you confirms that it is important, and it is interesting, and people are interested in these things. So, keep going. Don't let those demons get you in. So, I thank you for helping me battle my demons.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 31:38

You're welcome. 

 

Katia 31:39

Thank you so much for the opportunity.

 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 31:41

Thank you, Katia.

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