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Host: Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra, Author, Podcast Host, Founder of Talent Leadership Crucible & Founder of Impact Velocity
Guest Speaker: Ms. Natasha KK Mak-Levrion, Founder & CEO of PPEARL
Tune in, and together we'll be Thriving in the Age of Disruption.
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Ho Lai Yun
Welcome to Thriving in the Age of Disruption. Get ready to meet Natasha KK Mak Levrion, a powerhouse mom and entrepreneur based in Singapore. In this candid conversation with Dr. Ramesh, Natasha takes us on a journey through her entrepreneurial inclinations, from childhood sticker ventures to leading her own consulting company.
Natasha spills the beans on the rollercoaster of pivoting business strategies, emphasizing the importance of agility and bouncing back and doesn't shy away from sharing the ongoing struggle of balancing the demanding roles of mom, corporate warrior, and entrepreneur. Tune in for a relatable and personal conversation on mastering life's intricate balancing act.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
Hi, Natasha, and welcome to the Thriving in the Age of Disruption Podcast series. I'm really excited to catch up with you.
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
Yeah, very pleased to be here as well. Thanks for having me here. I guess there are different roles that I'd play. Definitely mom. Which is most important at the same time, friend, daughter, colleague, and business leader to the people that I work with and clients that I've served, I wouldn't say any of them are more important than the other, except for maybe mom sits right at the top of the pinnacle.
And what I do now is I am a business psychologist by training. I started my own consulting company in 2004. I sold it and then restarted it again in the middle of the pandemic. And what we do is we link up these experts, facilitators, trainers, coaches to corporate clients.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
Wonderful. I define an entrepreneurial mindset as someone who has the ability to pivot or adapt and essentially be resourceful. Number two is to be able to manage risk and face uncertainty. And lastly, to create value for themselves and for the people around them in terms of what they want to create. So when I look back at your own journey, being a teenager to going abroad, to study, to starting your own business, to working in a company, and then going back and being an entrepreneur.
I can see that you demonstrate that mindset.
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
For me, entrepreneurial mindset, I remember I got into a lot of trouble as a kid when I bought stickers from the sticker store and cut them up and then I was reselling them to me, it was just normal, yeah, something to make additional money and it made people happy, but of course, yeah, somehow it wasn't right.
Oh, I got into a lot of trouble and whatever kind of situation that I come across. I'm always thinking about how it can be better. Money doesn't matter to me, so I don't do it for the money. But it has to be part of that. I guess money represents in whatever scenario is that something has progressed and it's gotten better.
The value add, someone is interested in it to actually put money on the table. Yeah. I can be walking along downtown and then I see a bread store and I go, Oh, if they did this, business will be much better. So it's this constant, just in my head all the time. You've called out a couple more things that represent an entrepreneurial mindset, which is sometimes you could get into trouble.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
Yeah. You're also pointing to how resourcefulness in terms of trying to solve a problem or to adapt can also come from trying to make it a better world or a better product. And the last thing is that value doesn't necessarily have to be tied up to some monetary value.
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
I think this is something that needs to be ingrained or taught at a young age, never accepting the status quo. Yeah, also being agile, looking at things from a different way. So definitely something that we need to constantly remind ourselves to do. And if we've got a younger generation that we're helping to influence, help them along to build this mindset. That's great. How did you develop it? My mom was always, had some new business idea out there.
Yeah. And as growing up, I think that probably had a bearing and she was quite influential at home, instead of talking about the neighbors, we would talk about ideas, the dinner table.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
So what do you do now as a mom about inculcating this entrepreneurial mindset with your two daughters?
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
I try and share what's going on at work with them. And to be honest, I think about this quite a lot. Am I doing enough? Am I doing like what my mom did? I don't think I am. And sometimes I reproach myself at the same time. I also have to look at the children, they are built a bit differently from me, I must say. I try and catch what's interesting to them, right?
But what's important for them is I always share what's going on at work. My challenges, my triumph, and I try to get them to do things like my expenses. I do my expenses every quarter, which is great. And then, you know, there are any new app that we start to use at work, I get them to do special projects.
For example, creating cards with. Presentation tools and so on. They get to practice this before they get into the workplace.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
And how old are they?
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
They are 12 and 10 and a half.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
Oh, wow. Time flies. My daughter is 27. It's only when they get older that you realize that you're also older now because time stops as a mother and an individual.
Tell me, what was the motivation that had you move from corporate life to being an entrepreneur or the other way around? You've become someone who's pretty flexible in being able to move from managing your own business to being somebody else's professional employee.
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
I fell into it. Honestly, there was no plan. It just so happened that the job that I was in had me traveling a lot to Malaysia and then about two years where I was pretty much leaving on a Sunday coming back on a Friday and switching out clothes in my suitcase and then going back again. Then they were going to post me there to set up the Malaysian operations, which was everything I wanted to have a team to grow a business.
But there was a change in leadership when they decided that I should just continue doing what I did before, which was traveling back and forth. And that Was not what I wanted. So I just decided I'll just go it alone. At that point in time, everyone was saying like, well, how are you crazy? You're going to move to Malaysia on your own and it's not going to work.
And I was like, “Okay, I'll show you. Yeah, it's going to work.” So that was it. It wasn't easy. It was a lot of hard work. But I think I love that exploration, the adventure, uh, being able to prove to everybody that they're wrong. Yeah. Those were my driving forces. You talk about agile mindset. I think that's always been in me.
And I was talking about this with my husband two days ago. Whenever I face any obstacle, it doesn't matter if it's a small one or a big one. My mind automatically goes into. Alternate scenario planning. It's not a role. So could it be this? I don't get stuck in the moment. It's just, okay, let's start generating options, ideas, alternatives.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
I define crisis as a setback. And usually in a crisis, there is a turning point. And at that turning point, either you go ahead and you survive, or you can literally die. And what I'm hearing from you is that this ability to look at alternate scenario planning and options has been an important aspect of dealing with crisis.
So can you take us through an example of a crisis?
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
I'd say that since starting People in August, 2020, the business has gone through two pivots. When I first started, I wanted to build a platform and then jumped into it. So the consulting part of it was just a bread and butter that finance the tech part that I hired people.
I actually plowed quite a fair amount of resources. Into the business and it became very apparent that it was not the right decision. So I, within three months made a very significant turnaround on the strategy and where we were going. So that required stopping certain, let's say development of the apps and things that were already placed and changing of the way the business was from a resource point of view that moves quickly.
And I think by the end of the year, I realized this is not working. And. We were really bleeding, honestly, but we chased up and we got back into the black. Then I had a new idea again, cause we started to change the strategy. And then again, in about March, April of last year, I realized that wasn't going to work.
And again, there was a shift in the company strategy and therefore all the trickle down effect. It's been stressful, honestly, going through those bits, but it's also extremely exciting. Yeah, so I'm an adrenaline junkie, where some people love to do things like race cars and jump off high bridges. I love working in very unfamiliar territory and finding a way out of it.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
What I'm also hearing is that you confront very quickly what the current reality is, if you're going to run out of money, you would then be ready to. Take the decision, even if it meant that you're going to lose that investment. And if that new strategy is not going to pan out, you are willing to relook and make the changes.
So you're someone who is flexible and willing to look at what you need to change. So that you can stay on course versus being stuck.
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
Yeah. I think I'm always questioning. I never accept anything for a status quo. How can it be better? How can it be different? Is it okay? Is it the right way? When you start to ask yourself these questions all the time.
You never get stuck in the same thing, nor do you have pride messing with you. I'm always looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes. But of course that comes with frustration as well. People around me be like, again, I thought this is where we were going. Or why can't you stay on course? Yeah, so that line is very fine between appearing like totally haphazard or changing course.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
That's right. We love the status quo. Generally, human beings don't like to change. It is very threatening. And after a while, if you keep doing it too many times, then trust is eroded as well as there's fatigue. People can't then cope with what they have to do. I'm wondering, Natasha, whether this is what you do in your personal life as well, when you experience a personal crisis. Not necessarily a business crisis. Is this the same way you react to things?
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
Yeah, I think at home, I try to keep a few simple rules in place. So if those guiding principles are adhered to, there might be still changes. Do you know what I mean? But we never want to be in those rules.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
That's interesting because I was in a conversation recently because in our corporate work, we spend time creating futures or vision for organizations as well as family businesses.
And they could be sometimes five to 30 years out. And when you're speculating a future which is so far out, like 30 years, it's not going to be specific as in, I'm going to do X, Y, Z. It's that big, broad picture of what you're looking at. And at the same time, we know that to get to that outcome or that expression of accomplishment, there may be many pathways and interim strategies to take.
So it's okay to keep changing these strategies because it's to reach that final outcome. So long as we know that guiding principle or that North Star. Or that vision is still the same because that doesn't change. What changes is that pathway that we take to accomplishing that end outcome. I wanted you to share if you could something about a crisis that you personally struggled with. I'm sure the listeners would love to hear.
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
It's ongoing and it's just, yeah, constant dilemma about me being a mom. Being very honest, right? Sometimes it's very hard to be a mom. What do you mean by that? It's these beings that you love so much, but you have always to strike that balance between discipline and nurturing.
Giving them privacy and wanting to know everything to help. So it's just constant, natural. And every day you worry about something, you know, right. You want to be a friend, but you can't be a friend. So it's like Que Sera Sera, right? So what will be will be, and here you have an oscillating pattern because on the one hand, you've got discipline and on the other hand, you've got nurturing.
On the one hand, you've got, let's respect their privacy. And on the other hand is, Hey, they're only 10. I've got to be there to support them. What do I do to get that balance? Yeah. So what you are pointing to is that maybe it's our attachment, right? To let it be. Yeah, you're right. That's why it's difficult because I think by nature, quite, I guess maybe some people can't control it.
You want to have everything clear and I get it, right? And as a parent, you, you cannot and you shouldn't. So it's tough. Every now and then I have to reframe, rethink, recant that. Overall, I think that's why you love your kids, because you love the eclipses and everything else. Yeah, that's the truth.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
I get it. Where are you in your spiritual journey?
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
Okay, I don't see myself as a religious person. I do have a religion, which is Buddhism. I tend to take a very philosophical approach to things and believe that there's a higher purpose and a being that sort of guides us and unless we stick to our principles and our values, then all good.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
Okay. What was the most important piece of advice that you received from anybody about having a successful or a happy life?
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
Happiness is important. I just said this to my husband today. I realized that whatever I do is guided by being happy and by being happy, it means that I feel, you know. On an even keel, when something feels wrong, like a relationship or a decision, I have to correct it.
Yeah, I think that's a very basic principle. If I know that I'm doing things right, and right by others, by myself, then I'm happy. And do you think that people can live a simple life in today's world? I think so. It might be harder, honestly, maybe in more developed places, but I think it's possible to unplug and disconnect.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
So what is a simple life?
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
A simple life is living within your means, not asking for too much, being happy. With what you have, seeing the glasses half full rather than half empty and yeah, being grateful for what you have and not wanting what you don't. With social media, it's very easy to always think about what you don't have and not be thankful and grateful for what you have.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
Thriving in three words, how would you describe it?
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
Growing, happy, grateful.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
What does Sustainability mean to you?
Actually, I've always been extremely concerned about the environment. When I was eight, I remember writing about CFCs and ozone layer and stuff like that, about how we need to be more cognizant of the world that we live in. Our environment, mother earth that would not raise, I would do really ridiculous things like save buckets of water or refuse to drive, even though it would be much, much better.
Longer and way more inefficient. It bugs my husband sometimes, but I do it. Of course, people say, Hey, whatever you do has no impact or it's so minimal. Why even bother? It's just my way of being true to my principle. And if everybody did a little bit, yeah, it would help. Sustainability is important because whatever we do has an impact on everything, on other people and the future generations.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
We do work with organizations and in our corporate culture work, we talk about Sustainability as fundamentally the thriving of our living system. And the most basic living system is actually the human being. Being true to your principles or your values about saving Mother Earth. And not depleting natural resources. I think it's important for us to start with ourselves.
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
Definitely. Yeah. Everything starts with ourselves.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra
It was great having you.
Natasha KK Mak Levrion
Thanks for having me here.
Ho Lai Yun
Thank you, Dr. Ramesh and Natasha for your thoughts on what makes an entrepreneurial mindset that thrives in the face of juggling multiple roles and challenges.
In business and life, whether you're a startup founder, a seasoned business owner, or someone intrigued by the entrepreneur, follow Dr. Ramesh now on LinkedIn, Apple podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform to join in this journey toward having a powerful crisis, resilient, and entrepreneurial mindset.
