International Women's Day Special - Unleashing the Power of Women: Marina Mahathir (Malaysia)

Welcome to our International Women's Day 2023 special episode of Thriving in the Age of Disruption podcast. This year's IWD theme is #EmbraceEquity and we're excited to celebrate by sharing inspiring ideas of how we can all work to create a world where women are valued, respected, and empowered.

Dr. Ramesh has a very special guest, Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir, a renowned Malaysian socio-political activist and writer. Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir is also a fearless voice for women’s rights, gender equality, religious freedom and justice. The eldest child of Malaysia's longest-serving Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad, she has worked tirelessly to break down barriers and pave the way for women to rise and thrive.

In this episode, Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir shares her journey, her struggles, and triumphs as a woman in the public eye, in a patriarchal society. We'll also discuss the critical issues that women face today and how we can all work together and #embraceequity to empower women and amplify their voices. 

So sit back, grab a cup of tea and join Dr. Ramesh for this personal conversation on overcoming struggles,  finding growth and building more inclusive societies where every woman has the opportunity to thrive.

Share this podcast with your family, friends and colleagues - Let's all come together to #EmbraceEquity.

To learn more about the entrepreneurial mindset with Dr. Ramesh, get your copy of The Big Jump into Entrepreneurship 2.0 on Amazon.com or www.Dr-Ramesh.com.

If you're interested in Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir's latest book The Apple and the Tree - Life as Dr Mahathir's Daughter, go to Amazon.com.

Host: Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra, Author, Podcast Host and Founder of Talent Leadership Crucible

Guest Speaker: Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir, Writer, Activist, Founder of Zafigo

#MarinaMahathir #EmbraceEquity #IWD2023 #Writer #UNPersonOfTheYear #WomenDeliver.org #100MostInspiringPeopleDeliveringForGirlsAndWomen #ChevalierdelaLegionD'Honneur #DatoPadukaMahkotaSelangor #DPMS #DatinPaduka #3R #TV3 #Zafigo #WomenTravel #TheAppleAndTheTree #Dr.Mahathir #President #MalaysianAIDSCouncil #Activist #Women'sRights #HIV/AIDS #TheStar #NewspaperColumnist #SistersInIslam

Transcript

Share this podcast with your family, friends and colleagues - Let's all come together to #EmbraceEquity.

To learn more about the entrepreneurial mindset with Dr. Ramesh, get your copy of The Big Jump into Entrepreneurship 2.0 on Amazon.com or www.Dr-Ramesh.com.

If you're interested in Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir's latest book The Apple and the Tree - Life as Dr Mahathir's Daughter, go to Amazon.com.

Host: Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra, Author, Podcast Host and Founder of Talent Leadership Crucible

Guest Speaker: Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir, Writer, Activist, Founder of Zafigo

#MarinaMahathir #EmbraceEquity #IWD2023 #Writer #UNPersonOfTheYear #WomenDeliver.org #100MostInspiringPeopleDeliveringForGirlsAndWomen #ChevalierdelaLegionD'Honneur #DatoPadukaMahkotaSelangor #DPMS #DatinPaduka #3R #TV3 #Zafigo #WomenTravel #TheAppleAndTheTree #Dr.Mahathir #President #MalaysianAIDSCouncil #Activist #Women'sRights #HIV/AIDS #TheStar #NewspaperColumnist #SistersInIslam


Ho Lai Yun 00:00

Welcome to our International Women's Day special episode of Thriving in the Age of Disruption podcast. This year's theme is #embraceequity and we're excited to celebrate by sharing inspiring ideas of how we can all work to create a world where women are valued, respected and empowered.

Dr. Ramesh has a very special guest today, Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir, a renowned Malaysian socio-political activist and writer. Marina was the 2010 UN Person of the Year in Malaysia for her good work in combating AIDS and named in the 100 Most Inspiring People Delivering for Girls and Women, in conjunction with the 100th anniversary of International Women’s Day in 2011.

Entrepreneurship-wise, Mahathir is the founder of Zafigo.com, a website dedicated to women travellers, inspired by her mission to encourage women to travel the world. Marina is also a fearless voice for women’s rights, gender equality, religious freedom and justice. The eldest child of Malaysia's longest-serving Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad, she has worked tirelessly to break down barriers and pave the way for women to rise and thrive.

In this episode, Marina shares her journey, struggles, and triumphs as a woman in the public eye, in a patriarchal society. She also discusses with Dr. Ramesh the critical issues that women face today and how we can all work together and #embraceequity to empower women and amplify their voices. 
 
So sit back, grab a cup of tea and join Dr. Ramesh for this personal conversation with one of one of Malaysia's most outspoken and fascinating voices.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 01:41

Welcome to the Thriving in the Age of Disruption podcast series, Datin Paduka Marina Mahathir. It's our privilege to have you here today. I wanted to start off by asking you to introduce yourself. Please let us know what you do for a living, what keeps you occupied and what you're passionate about. 

Marina Mahathir 01:59

Thanks, Ramesh, for having me on this show. I'm Marina Mahathir. I like to call myself a writer. But in fact, I do many, many things, mostly around writing and communication. I've been a journalist, a PR consultant, led NGOs, and I'm still very much involved in activism, particularly for women's rights and human rights in general.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 02:23

On International Women's Day, what's your hope, and wishes, for women in 2023?

Marina Mahathir 

Well, I think all over the world women are in crisis, the world is in crisis. There are also terrible things going on. But women are feeling the impact of it all over the world, whether it is in America, where their reproductive rights are being attacked, in really extreme cases, like Afghanistan, or in places like Iran, and less publicised issues in many other countries where women are really seeing their voices tempered down or being attacked. Here in Malaysia, my organisation, Sisters In Islam is constantly being attacked. And we're seeing rising conservatism here, and all over the world. Actually, you know, the first target of attack is always women, regardless of which country, which religion, women are somehow always the first. There's a lot of issues that women are facing, I think the most important thing is that we all have to understand that these are all our issues. It's not just an Afghan women's issue, Iranian, or American women's issue. It is all our issues.

Marina Mahathir 03:40

Sometimes these things are like a virus, they can spread. Some male-dominated government see, “Okay, that works in that country, maybe I'll try too”, and it goes on and on. And so, we have to stand in solidarity with one another. I think that's the most important thing, we have to stand in solidarity, we have to stand up for each other. But without imposing our own views on different people. Like Iranian women, for example, are quite capable of solving their own problem, look at them, their bravery! These women just going out there and they just need the moral support from the rest of us because things can go bad. You look at Sudan, where women came out to protest against the government, and they managed to bring down that government. There was a new government, and the new government completely forgot about all those women! That's something that not paid attention to as much. We really need to stand up for each other. That's really important. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 04:43

That’s true. Each of us standing in solidarity, we can do what we need to do at our own levels. So, if I'm a boss in an organisation, I can look to mentor younger women. Or I'm a junior staff, I can look at collaborating with my other colleagues who are women, so that we're not fighting for that same attention, but rather work together. That’s actually the key shift that I am also so aware of, because unlike men who have the old boys network, I think women still don't have that same kind of excitement and affinity towards creating a network or a tribe.

Marina Mahathir 05:23

It's coming together now more than ever, because there are more women out in the workforce in executive positions and all that. I went to boarding school here, the female equivalent of an elite boys school here in Malaysia. The boys are very networked, so much so that every Wednesday, they'll wear the same coloured school tie. They have regular meetings and all that. But women, because in school, even from young, we are not socialised to know that we will need each other later on. We’re all smart and we all expected to rise, shine in whatever we do. Ultimately, we are expected to get married, have kids and all that. And our work life is separate, and we won’t need each other. Whereas the men, they stay in touch because they may need each other? We are not socialised to do that from young. So, when we finally start, it's kind of late for some people, but I think there's a growing recognition where people try and keep alumnis together because that builds bonds for future.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 06:32

Definitely we can do more to develop our own tribes and our networks and keep connected. 

Marina Mahathir 

Yeah.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

And not be transactional, like only when we need a favour, right, to reach out. 

Marina Mahathir 

Yes, exactly.

Marina Mahathir 06:49

What I really love doing is writing. I have been writing at columns in The Star newspaper for 30 years, and I've had some books published, which are compilations of those columns. Most recently, Penguin Random House published a book of mine, which is a memoir. It's called The Apple and the Tree, which came out in November 2021. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

Your recent book, The Apple and the Tree, can you share a little bit more about the inspiration behind the book and how writing the book has altered the way you look at life and what people have said about that?

Marina Mahathir 07:22

The Apple and the Tree is a memoir. The subhead is Life As Dr. Mahathir's Daughter. One of the favourite questions people used to ask me is, “What is it like to be Dr. M's daughter?” So, I thought I’d answered once and for all, with this book. And I've always wanted to write a book from start to finish, because I've been writing columns all this time, and a column is 800 to 1000 words, it's not always very satisfying. You can't explore a topic thoroughly. I actually went off to study how to write a book, I went to do my Master's in Biography and Creative Non-fiction in the UK. 

About a year after that, actually, during the COVID, lockdown, Penguin Random House Singapore approached me and asked if I would write a book exactly on this topic. So that's what I did and it came out in November ‘21. It's been a year, it's done fairly well. I was doing a lot of readings, book signings and interviews and everything. I've just been in Dhaka, Bangladesh, for the Dhaka Literary Festival, I talked about the book. And next week, I'm going to Dubai for the Emirates Literary Festival, where again, I'm talking about the book. So, it's been a very, very exciting journey. And the book has allowed me to not just flex my writing muscles, but also it’s allowed me to meet a whole lot of people that I don't think I would have the chance to meet. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 08:51

Thank you for sharing that, because you can see the richness of that project. Not only did you explore just a topic, but you explored your relationship, your life, right, and being Dr. Mahathir's daughter, which at some point might have been also very personal. So how did you feel writing about some of these things? 

Marina Mahathir 

Well, it has to be personal, because otherwise, it's not interesting, I think, to the reader. But of course, I have to navigate a lot of delicate issues. And you know, it takes a lot of thinking, because you'll always have to think of how people closest to you, the people you mentioned, are going to react. So, you want to be authentic, you want to be true to yourself, but you also kind of need to be diplomatic in how you put things. So, I think there's a lot of read between the lines.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 09:48

An entrepreneurial mindset is a very critical mindset to have in this age of disruption. And I define entrepreneurial mindset as one whereby we are being resourceful. That means that when we face a problem we don't give up, we are able to look at what the problem is, maybe even define it better. Number two is that in the process of looking at the problem, there would be uncertainty and there would be risk, and we are able to deal with that. And lastly, of course, we are creating value not just for ourselves, but also for the people around us and the different stakeholders. So, when I look at your journey, and how you've moved from being a journalist, to a PR consultant, to running NGOs, to activism, to even writing your book, it's obvious that you have demonstrated entrepreneurial mindset. Anyone can take on an entrepreneurial mindset, but not everyone might want to start and run a business.

Marina Mahathir 10:44

I didn't really think of myself as having much of an entrepreneurial mindset, I just look at a problem and try and solve it somehow. That is what I do, whether I'm in an NGO or I'm doing something else. I guess the main example of me being an entrepreneur and starting a business is that I have this travel website called zafigo.com which aims to provide information for women who are interested in travel to encourage them to have safe and smooth travel. The background of that was that when I was in my NGO, working in HIV AIDS, I used to have to go to meetings. My question, every time that I had to go, whether it is to Pakistan, or to Kenya or somewhere is, “How do I dress?” I couldn't find any information. And I realised that travel is very, very gendered. And that women have to think of certain things that men don't really have to worry about. One of them is dress. Because in places that are quite conservative, for instance, like Pakistan, you have to think about what you're wearing. And men don't really, I mean, they, they can wear a shirt and tie and a jacket, and then they're fine. Whereas we have to think about whether our heads need to be covered, how much of our arms can be exposed, that sort of thing. And there are also cultural issues. In some places, men won't shake hands with you. Be prepared for that shock. I've known women who have led delegations to certain places, and then were told to leave the room by the men because they couldn't accept a woman as being the head of delegation. So, I thought that was a need there and I just could not find any information. Although there are many travel websites for women, but they are very Western. And they’re about Western women traveling. Whereas for us Asian women particularly, I think we face very different issues. So I realised there was a need, and I thought it would be great to have a website. Women who travel, they agreed, they said, yeah, they'd like to know. Some of them were in the foreign service, some of them in NGOs, and they were being sent to places like Afghanistan, where people will brief them on security, but not on dress and culture and things like that. 

Marina Mahathir 13:07

I finally met a friend who knows how to set up websites. And he said, “Yeah, we can do it.” And that's how we started in 2014. And it's nine years, it's thriving. I have eight young women working and they're full of ideas. It's become a go-to site for a lot of people, whether they're in Malaysia, or people coming to visit Malaysia. We're trying to expand it beyond Malaysia, talk about other countries as well. But yeah, it’s really happening and I'm really pleased and proud with it. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 13:40

That's a great example of an idea. And it came from a day-to-day problem that women face. To have launched it as a business and to have sustained it over the years, to having it be thriving at this level is extraordinary. And that's how businesses start. It doesn't have to be an innovative big tech idea. 

Marina Mahathir 

For a long time, it was a real struggle and now we're really seeing the fruits of that work. We've had a number of changes of personnel, changes of the look and feel of it, it's just getting better and better and I'm in for the long haul.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 14:14

Wonderful. One important thing that has happened, I think in the last 10 years also, women now have become more interested in traveling alone. They want not just the safety, but also to be appropriate to be able to enjoy whichever country that they go to. So, websites like yours will provide incredible information to help people prepare. 

Marina Mahathir 14:35

When I was young, I kind of did an around-the-world trip on my own. Many, many years ago. And I saved up for it, I planned. This was the days before the internet. So, everything was done manually, so to speak. And I had been very sick before that, I had Dengue and I've been very ill. But I was really determined to go. And it was great. I had all sorts of warnings, especially my mom, that New York is like, “Oh, it's a terrifying place!” And that sort of thing. But I didn't tell her everything. But yeah, I survived it all, I could do it! And I think that is the point of Zafigo, that if you do manage to travel safely and smoothly with the tips that we provide, it really uplifts your whole self-confidence. Then it makes you more positive about other things that you can do; in your work in your personal life and everything. It really has a knock-on effect just from doing that.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 15:40

It's true. I started to think back about the time when I had the opportunity to be on a container ship for about three weeks, which went from Singapore to Australia. And I never thought much about it. I was 19 years old, I think, when I did that trip. But looking back now, I think that did shape how I looked at the world and how I could be with certain situations. When you're a 19-year-old and you have to deal with certain situations, then you're ready for the rest of the world and the rest of the things that are going to come at you. 

Marina Mahathir 

Right. Oh, I didn't think they took passengers…

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 16:15

No, they didn't! It was a prize that I’d won because I had done a diploma in shipping management and Neptune Orient Lines had given that as their part of the prize and BA (British Airways) flew us one way and then we came back on the container ship. So, it was an extraordinary opportunity. But I tell you, there were times when I would look out into the wide ocean, and all I would see is just the sea, right? It was quite frightening, looking at just water and water and water. Endless. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 16:47

The next topic may be an extension of entrepreneurship. Do you have some plans for this travel website in terms of expanding it and raising funds? Or are you looking at growing it organically?

Marina Mahathir 

I have many aspirations for it, I really would like it to cover all of Asia, which is what we originally intended. Really, I'm trying to extend it to the rest of Southeast Asia. Eventually, I hope it will be a community, I hope that there will be Zafigo-ers everywhere and we can connect people and they can meet each other, and they will become something like, I don't know, Expedia or something. We can arrange tours, that's something I'd like to do in the future. We are attracting interest from other people in the travel industry. For instance, my staff, they get invitations from Tourism Australia and from other organisations to go and visit and do reviews. So we're getting known and they liked the fact that our target audience is women. We really are getting a lot more readership, not just in Malaysia, but around the world. I really, really want it to grow bigger. And I'm very happy to have partnerships with other people, anyone who can add value to us, or we add value to them. So yeah, everything is possible. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 18:13

I love that! So if anyone is listening to this conversation, and you want to contribute, or you're looking to collaborate, reach out to www.zafigo.com. 

Marina Mahathir 

Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 18:30

Having a crisis-ready mindset is also an important attribute to have in today's world of disruption. I define crisis as any kind of setback that you have to deal with in life. And usually, during the setback, you will have a turning point. If you take action, either you're going to face death, or you're going to move forward. And some of us can freeze and we don't do anything about it. And the decision almost gets made by the circumstance itself. In your own life, how have you dealt with crisis?

Marina Mahathir

it's been a learning curve for me to learn how to deal with crisis. I think in the old days, when I was much younger, I tended to sit on things. And then like you said, it gets decided for me which is not always the way I wanted it. So I think over time, I've learned to take charge more like realize that I can do something to get through the crisis, that evading it is not the answer, you know, you have to go through it. And that's the only way you can get the outcome that you really want. And also, it's part of growth really. I've had some big and small ones, both personal and at work, but I think I've gotten better at it. I'm no longer fearful over crisis comes then, okay, I'll just face it. I used to just react when something happens. 

Marina Mahathir 19:57

And nowadays, I'm much calmer, I think meditation helps. I’m more able to see things as they are and see what I can control, what I can do, and then take it from there. I mean, the whole world has been in crisis. I feel like the pandemic has really allowed us to reorder our priorities and see what's really important in life, whether it's personal, or in our work and in our public life, like I have. That's how you build resilience really, by looking at what's really important in your lives? I mean, one of the things I realized, during the pandemic, is that I don't need a lot of stuff in my life. Having more stuff means having more things to take care of. And that's a burden, actually, that's an ongoing strain. We just had to discard all the unimportant things and then you have less. I felt so liberated. And similarly work has changed in my Zafigo office. We are flexible, I guess, with the way we work even before the pandemic because we are almost all women, there are some young mothers so they need time to take care of their kids as well. And so, I'd be very flexible. 

After the pandemic, once we go back to work, it's kind of more I wouldn't say concretise, but it's become the norm now. Three days in the office and two days off; any three days and any two days. I only insist that there's one day when everybody is in. Because I think we have to keep seeing each other, we have to keep looking at people's faces, especially those you work with, to know how they feel about anything. There is no substitute, really, for real human interaction. And if anything, they've become much more productive. That's why I think Zafigo for sure, has gotten so much better; they're much more relaxed, because they're not having to think about other things that they have to do and all that. There's always a time and place to do it. For me too. I'm not here nine to five, but even if I'm out of the office doesn't mean I'm not working, I'm just doing it in a different setting, maybe, or taking care of other things that I really need to do. Really happy with things the way they are now.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 22:15

A lot of people have talked about how they've shifted their work styles as a result of COVID. I mean, for ourselves, especially since I run a consulting firm, and in the past, I’ve never dared to say that we will do our engagement by Zoom. But when we were forced to, for two years, not to be able to travel and have to deliver our work day-in-day-out through Zoom or virtually, then it became like, “Okay, we can actually produce the result without having to meet people.” But then you still had to, like you said, look for those little ways in which to connect with people. Because human beings, you need to create the relationship and you need to connect with them. And so, whether it was someone there in Vietnam, when we were doing the work, who represented us, or we did something that they saw was also akin to what we would have done if we were there face-to-face. So, we need to make those adjustments. I was just wondering, though, I mean, what was that key crisis for you where you started to let go of stuff, that you realize that you don't need to evade the situation or worry too much.

Marina Mahathir 23:27

I remember waking up on New Year's Day, I think many, many years ago, I was about 35 and feeling miserable and horrible. And I thought, “I don’t want to spend the rest of my life feeling like this”, and therefore I had to look at what was causing all this. So, it was very clear to me what was causing it. And basically, it led to a divorce; my first husband, which was a bit of a fight, because I didn't want to lose my child, I was very afraid of that. Took all the steps to protect that. And I did it; took a few years. And then after that, sort of meeting my husband now and also took a few years before we could get married and have a baby. I had to navigate all this very discreetly, because my father is a public figure. And I'm sort of semi-public as well, you know. Those are added pressures and all the hazards of being a public figure, all the hazards of Malaysian politics. Those were probably pivotal moments and there have been other smaller ones. And I'm still learning to this day how to handle people particularly. I'm very private and I expect other people to be private. I don't think I'm always great with people. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 24:27

What's your advice to young women who aspire to move up in corporate world or in running their businesses, in terms of how they can develop their leadership skills?

Marina Mahathir 

I think everyone is a potential leader. You just don't always recognize it yourself. I went to boarding school here in Malaysia. Having always been a kind of follower and just going along with things. I was really entranced by how some of my schoolmates just had natural leadership abilities. They were the first to organise anything, they were the first to lead teams. I thought, “Wow, how come some people are like that?” I would never step out to lead anything. I never thought I could do it. I never thought I had the right to do it. And then later on when I was put in a situation, particularly when I was asked to chair the Malaysian AIDS Foundation, and I found myself suddenly in a leadership position. I really had to learn in real time how to be a leader. Everyone was looking to me for leadership, and I had to kind of learn on the job. I don’t think I made many major mistakes, but I realized that it's a real balance, at least for women between leading and allowing the space for the people who are looking up to you to also voice their views. Those 12 years that I was at Malaysian AIDS Council, I can vouch that the me at the beginning and the me at the end was not the same at all, I grew up so much. 

Marina Mahathir 26:23

I mean, I was thrown into the deep end completely. And I had to learn on the job. A lot of it was by listening and learning and being open to what other people say, I realise that I always had to come with something to the table, but had to be prepared for it to be shut down or amended. That's the way it is. A lot of young women, I think, can learn that lesson. But that environment has to be conducive. That's where I think, women who are already leadership positions, need to play that mentoring role. Because if a lot of young women are put in situations where there are mostly men, and they don't see anyone else like them in that role, they're going to find it hard going, and they're going to find it, maybe even oppressive. The space for them to contribute is not going to be there unless they get really, really aggressive and then they're going to face a pushback. I've been very, very lucky in that all my mentors have been female. All my bosses, my early bosses have been female. And they've all been great, nurturing women. I see a lot of talented young women these days with a lot of potential and I really place a lot of hopes on them to become our leaders now, actually. They don't have to wait for the future. We don't have time to wait for the future. I mean, they have to step up and lead now. Look at Greta Thunberg, for example.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 27:52

Correct, yes.

Marina Mahathir 

What did she do? She just sat in front of the Swedish parliament or whatever, with a sign. As leadership, she just decided to do it. I see lots of young women who are able to do that. They just step out. And that's it. One of the myths about leadership is that you need to have a lot of followers before you can be a leader. And I think what Greta has shown us is that no, you just lead and others will find you and follow you.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 28:20

That's right. Piggybacking on your idea, it's more of leading yourself first, right? And that's the key point about leading that you learn to lead yourself because often where we fail in in our leadership is that we think it's about others following us. But we forget that we come to the table ready with something. We are there, open. And all that is part of leading ourselves. Well, you mentioned that you had great mentors. How did it happen? Did you proactively go looking for them? 

Marina Mahathir 

I have been really, really lucky in that, my first job, I worked at a women's magazine. And the editor was a woman. And I talked about her in my book, actually, when I said that she hadn't known I was coming. Her boss, the general manager of the whole company employed me without telling her and he's a man of course. So, I was kind of foisted on her. And the first time I met her, she looked really unfriendly, and I was really scared. And I thought, oh, no, she thinks I'm here because of favouritism or whatever. But I just got down to work. To me, all I wanted to do is write and to work, to be working for a magazine was to me it was like wow. And eventually she saw that I was a real worker, a real writer, then she began to appreciate that I had plenty to contribute. And she was really, really a very nurturing editor. She really pushed me out. And I just learnt! I think now women who are in top positions, they're more aware of their role in bringing up other women. We need more going up the ladder; so many women before looked down and find nobody else there to take their place.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

That’s right. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 30:15

Where are you in your spiritual journey?

Marina Mahathir 

It's a difficult question. Our spiritual life is very much related to everything else that's going on. And it's whether you are happy with things or not. If things are not going right in my environment, then I think my spirituality drops.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

It's such a simple way to gauge that. 

Marina Mahathir 30:36

In a way, nurturing your spirituality needs time and space. When you're busy running around trying to solve this or that issue, then that kind of takes a backseat. Because the work I do in my current activism, which is about human rights, and particularly Muslim women's rights, I have to think about the spiritual dimension to it all. Our work at Sisters (In Islam) is really about how laws and policies are influenced by religion. So, you we have to kind of question like, “What religion? Whose religion?” And if these laws and policies are unjust, there's something wrong here because all religions are brought to us to make our lives better, not worse. When you start reflecting on why is there dissonance, you start separating the true faith and beliefs with human made laws and policies and things. And then you start seeing what you really believe in. And if you believe in justice, and equality and all that, then then you have to turn back to the original source and realize that all the trouble you're seeing is actually human made. The answer to that is to go back to the origins, you know. We are all meant to do good. And the rules are simple, actually. Be good to other people, practice charity, that sort of thing. 

I'm going to Dubai next week for the Emirates literary festival. And they've put me on a panel with two very learned man, Reza Aslan, who's an Islamic scholar and has written several books. He is Iranian American. The other was someone I didn't know at all. So, I was a bit afraid I was quite inhibited by the idea of this panel and decided to read up what he has written. And it's a very simple book this man has written. He's from the UAE, he's actually the current Emirati ambassador to France, I think. He's got this mind that is so open and progressive, and basically he’s written a book to his son trying to give the son advice on how to navigate this world, all its many challenges, and be a good Muslim. And his definition of a good Muslim isn't just about praying five times a day and fasting and giving alms. It’s more than that, you know, it's about being just to other people. It's about looking after people who have less than you. It’s just wonderful.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 33:17

It all boils down for you about being connected, connected to yourself, to your highest self, to the universe, to everything, right? Because then, you're part of that system, and you are whole.

Marina Mahathir 

 Yeah.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

And when there is a breakdown, and there is disconnection, then you see the stresses and the injustice, right? 

Marina Mahathir 

Exactly.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 33:42

So do you think it's possible for us to live a simple life in today's world?

Marina Mahathir 

I think it depends on what you mean by simple.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

And what is simple for you? 

Marina Mahathir 

I think simple for me is to just be able to wake up in the morning with a clear conscience and to carry on and do my work. Be nice to people and have people be nice to me. I think that will be a simple life for me. But I don't think I'm simple in the sense that I have my stuff, I have my phone that is attached to my hand, I have all these different things going on. But to be able to navigate life and feel at peace, to me, that would be a simple life. It is not complicated at all. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 34:27

So that's interesting, because I think you've made that distinction between that piece that you have control over, which is from your own perspective, or your relationship to simplicity. And that's really about having no baggage, what you call it, as a clear conscience. Have no baggage or you have let go. So you're not burdened by whatever that happened yesterday, and you start afresh.

Marina Mahathir 

Exactly. Being able to get up every day and feel like, okay, I can handle this, no big issues. That to me would be, when I can say my life is simple. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

That's right. And then of course, there's the other piece, which is that you've got roles to play and responsibility and often the simplicity there is not within your control, because there are things that you have to do and what you have to do. And that's it.

Marina Mahathir 

For women, you know, we are wives, we are mothers, daughters, we are sisters. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

Yeah. 

Marina Mahathir 35:23

Sometimes more than that to lots of other people. And juggling those roles can be exhausting, right? So I just feel blessed that not all those people need me at the same time.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

So if you had to use a couple of words to describe the state of thriving, what would you use for yourself? When are you thriving, when are you flourishing as a human being?

Marina Mahathir 

I think personally, I'm flourishing when I'm writing. There's nothing I would love more than to be able to just sit and write every day. It's a need to put something down on paper. Sometimes it's the physical act of writing and when I have the time to do that, and that's when I think I'm happiest and I almost feel whole like. I'm thriving when I do that. A few years ago, I took up journaling. And although it's not going to lead to a book or anything, the fact that I do it every day gives me the sense of satisfaction because I do it at the end of the day, is a nice round up to my day, what has happened in the day. It just calms me down too, it’s quite meditative. And that I think, makes me able to go on to the next thing. 

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 

Yeah. 

Marina Mahathir 

Well, I feel like it helps me thrive in that way.

Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 36:41

Wow. Marina, I want to thank you for an exciting conversation that I've had with you. Definitely there's been food for thought and I'm going to go back and reflect on some of the things that we discussed. I hope you've enjoyed the time together as well.

Marina Mahathir 

I have, thanked you very much. It's one of the more substantive conversations I've had in an interview. So, thank you. This was very enjoyable. 

Ho Lai Yun 37:05

Thank you for joining Dr. Ramesh and Marina today. We hope that you’ve enjoyed listening to Marina’s personal journey on overcoming struggles and finding growth. 

We’d love for you to share this podcast with your family, friends and colleagues - Let's all come together to #embrace equity and build more inclusive societies where every woman has the opportunity to thrive.

If you're interested to learn more about the entrepreneurial mindset, check out Dr. Ramesh's book "The Big Jump into Entrepreneurship 2.0", simply click on the Amazon link provided in the podcast description. In addition, make sure you follow Dr. Ramesh on LinkedIn so that you’ll get the latest insights from her and our amazing podcast guest speakers.

Thank you once again for joining us today!

Bio:

Marina Mahathir

Writer, Women’s Rights and HIV/AIDS Activist, Founder of Zafigo.com

Marina Mahathir is a writer, women’s rights and HIV/AIDS activist. She served as the President of the Malaysian AIDS Council for 12 years from 1993-2005. Currently she is a member of Sisters in Islam, which advocates for justice and equality for Muslim women. She is also chairs Musawah, the global movement for justice and equality in the Muslim family.

Marina has written a fortnightly column on social issues in a local English-language daily for more than 25 years and writes and speaks regularly on current issues particularly where it relates to gender and human rights. Between 2001 and 2009, she was Co-Executive Producer of an award-winning TV programme for young women, 3R-Respect, Relax and Respond and in 2020 she was co-executive producer for a documentary, M for Malaysia, which was the country’s entry for the Academy Awards. She is semi-regular on Twitter (@netraKL) and Facebook and has authored five books, In Liberal Doses (1997), Telling It Straight (2012) and Dancing on Thin Ice (2015), compilations of her newspaper columns, and 50 Days:Rantings by MM (2009). Her latest, a memoir entitled The Apple and the Tree: Life as Dr Mahathir’s Daughter was published by Penguin Random House Southeast Asia in November 2021.

In 2010, Marina was named the UN Person of the Year by the United Nations in Malaysia. On the occasion of the 100th anniversary of International Women’s Day in 2011, Marina was one of only two Malaysian women named to WomenDeliver.org’s list of 100 Most Inspiring People Delivering for Girls and Women. Marina has received several honorary degrees including from Universiti Sains Malaysia, Wawasan Open University and her alma mater, the University of Sussex. In 2022 she graduated with a Masters (distinction) in Biography and Creative Non-Fiction from the University of East Anglia.

Marina also sits on the Board of the Maybank Foundation, the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra and the Dewan Filharmonik Petronas.  In 2014 she set up a travel website for women called Zafigo.com and has hosted the online talk show Hello Zafigo as well as a podcast Busy Reading Books by Zafigo.com.

In 1997, Marina was awarded the Datuk Paduka Mahkota Selangor by HRH the Sultan of Selangor, which carries the title ‘Datin Paduka’. In 2016 the French government awarded her the Chevalier de la Legion d’Honneur for her achievements in HIV/AIDS and human rights.