To learn more about Entrepreneurship with Dr. Ramesh, get your copy of The Big Jump into Entrepreneurship 2.0 on Amazon.com or www.Dr-Ramesh.com.
Host: Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra, Author, Podcast Host and Founder of Talent Leadership Crucible
Guest Speaker: Dr. Jessica Leong, Founding Director, CEO/Clinical & Academic Director, Executive Counselling and Training Academy (ECTA)
PhD, Counselling Psychology, MA in Counselling and Msc in TA Psychotherapy
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Ho Lai Yun 00:05
Hello, and thank you for joining us today on Thriving in the Age of Disruption. I'm glad you're here for this special conversation where Dr. Ramesh catches up with her mentor and first coach from decades ago when she was still just a tertiary student. Meet Dr. Jessica Leong, founder director, CEO and Clinical and Academy Director of the Executive Counselling and Training Academy (ECTA).
This Academy is a realisation of a lifelong dream for Dr. Leong, who has always believed in the benefits of counselling and how counselling can help an individual find hope and the courage to grow and blossom.
Dr. Leong has a PhD in Psychology and is an accredited registered Counsellor, Psychotherapist and a Certified Clinical Teaching and Supervising Transactional Analyst.
Dr. Leong has won the Gold Award in the "Excellence in Teaching" Convention organised by an Institute of Higher Learning, and has also achieved the distinction of becoming the first certified Transactional Analyst in Singapore. In addition, Dr. Leong was President of the Transactional Analysis Association in Singapore for over 20 years.
She continues to lecture at universities, and is a prolific author, corporate trainer, and conference and event speaker sharing her expertise in the Transactional Analysis domain generously.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 01:30
Jessica, you're someone who's very special in my life, I met you when I was 17, and a student at the Singapore Polytechnic. In fact, I think you were my first coach and mentor, and you made such a big impact in my life. You know, coaches and mentors can have very powerful influence over the choices that we make and how we grow.
What would be your advice when choosing a mentor because I think it's useful for us to have mentors, Jessica?
Dr. Jessica Leong 01:57
It's important to choose a mentor that is not competitive with you. Because if your mentor is very competitive, you have a lot of power politics. So, I think the first one is to choose one whereby the mentor is not competitive. The word 'mentor' is that you go to that person to help you, to encourage you. Mentors must always remember the acronym of mentor, to help the mentee to manage, to encourage, and then to nurture, to nurture their talents, their development, and to nurture the whole being. M-E-N and T is to teach, to teach them organisational responsibilities that when you take up any role, there must be organisational responsibilities. So, for the mentee, do not select someone who's insecure, who's competitive. And also as a mentor, we must always remember your mentee's success is your success.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 03:04
That's so true.
Dr. Jessica Leong 03:05
When I first saw you, there was the part of me that was very intuitive, I knew that one day, you're gonna make it, and you're gonna make a difference. I didn't expect it to come so soon. So, I was indeed very proud to be part of your development and to be able to witness your success as a woman and as an entrepreneur. So, I would say that this is one of my own success stories that I like to share.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 03:36
Thank you, Jess, and thank you for being there when it made the most difference to me. You've been someone who has an entrepreneurial mindset because you're resourceful, you look at a problem, you're looking at how to solve it, to create value and to manage the risk. And so my question for you would be, what was the turning point? What had you go out there and start your own business? Because you were comfortable without having to do that and take on that as an added responsibility.
Dr. Jessica Leong 04:15
I see myself as a late developer if I could turn the clock around. I would want to develop the personal leadership within me much earlier so that I could have a longer runway to do many things that I would like to do and believe that I'm competent, and I have the passion. I think that if you want to start any entrepreneur kind of journey, we have to, on our own initiative, scan for opportunities. Because sometimes when the opportunity is within our radar, but we miss it. How many of us had missed opportunities in life? If there's one thing that people can take away today is never, never be a victim of missed opportunity.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 05:12
You also mentioned that you might have wanted to start on the journey of developing your personal leadership. What aspect of personal leadership were you referring to?
Dr. Jessica Leong 05:23
I came from a very complex childhood because my mother was a second wife. I think that many of the regular experiences of a simple family, I never had. And so growing up, I think that I learned to have low self-esteem, thinking that I'm not good enough. Probably, it took away about 20 to 25 years of possibilities. And it was because of my mindset, and the paradigm that I had, that I was not good enough. I was very fortunate when I was in the tertiary institution, the CEO identified that even though I was married, and had two little children, he believed that academically I could be developed. And I was given a kind of scholarship that provided a salary, a university for me, to develop myself.
Dr. Jessica Leong 06:26
So, as I was pursuing my Master of Counselling in England, I actually grew up a lot, because I found that I believe in myself, that I'm able to achieve the dream of my life because I had the passion for counselling. And here you are in this tertiary institution, and being away from home, it paved the opportunity for me to develop my personal leadership and also, to expand on my passion, to contribute to the community, to contribute to those less fortunate than myself.
Counselling is, perhaps, a profession that gelled most with me, because I then stopped having self-pity and looking at myself that "I'm not good enough". I then realised that success for any leadership or entrepreneurship is 'gratitude'. Gratitude is very important, very grateful to the opportunities that were given to me. And when I started to have gratitude, I found that I had better mental health and I don't go into a position of victim of being disadvantaged.
Maybe 14 months in the United Kingdom, there was only in my 30s that I grew up. And as I flew home, I felt empowered. And I'm always grateful to the CEO of this tertiary institution. He allowed me to actually start a course in counselling in a Singapore context. At that time, it was only a counselling and care centre, that offered counselling courses. He actually gave me the platform, the moral support, the academic support, and also the financial reassurance, and I was able to successfully set up a counselling course.
I became so excited and became a dreamer. I thought, "What if I can start a course on my own and be a boss, which I've never been?" And so that was how I started the Executive Counselling and Training Academy. Today, it is a very established leader in counselling. I'm grateful to opportunities.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 08:56
Thank you for taking us through that journey. And would you mind sharing who this CEO of tertiary Institute was?
Dr. Jessica Leong 09:03
He was my CEO, Dr. Varaprasad, who was then the CEO of Temasek Polytechnic, and it was an unconditional acceptance, he believed in dedication, hard work, honesty, and also passion. And he never demanded anything else. And that was very, very comforting, coming from a person that I do admire. I saw a lot of leadership qualities in him.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 09:32
Wow, this is a very rich, the content that you've just shared with us because you've taken us through your own personal struggle with regards to leadership vis-a-vie as low self-esteem, and how you had the first opportunity to create a new perspective about yourself through that master's in counselling program. But even how you obtain that support to do that master's was part of that breakthrough and how, when you returned you had for yourself a fresh perspective about yourself and your ability. The second opportunity you shared was how, in the course of your work, the opportunity to start something new, which for most of us who work for organisations- that's actually the closest to entrepreneurship, which is to try and start something new. And you jumped in, and you took that on. And that became then the opportunity to dream, "What if I went out there and started something new?" A very important piece that you highlighted today, and that is gratitude and how gratitude actually can impact all of us in shaping how we look at life? Also, I heard your gratitude for your corporate CEO sponsor, who had faith in you. And over time, you were able to create a 'new you'.
So, Jess, what you do now in running your organisation? Because you have like twenty people who work for you?
Dr. Jessica Leong 11:00
I have nineteen people who work full-time in my academy. This will also be another good input for people who are wanting to start their business, I strongly believe that you must look for personalities that actually can gel with you, because the formation and the combination of talents, personalities, competencies, and also good gender representation - a wide scope of different competencies that they are coming in, is very important for success in a business. Sometimes you can put in a commendable effort, and put in a lot of your own savings. But if the partnership breaks down, then you would have to crawl all over again. So, I thought that for anyone who wants to start any business and believes in partnership, which is a great thing, might want to consider personality compatibility and the different competencies that each person can contribute to the Board. They must have two things: a common goal, and also motivation. Each person must not depend on the other person to motivate him or her. But the individual, who is part of that entrepreneurship, must marshal in your own zeal, your own enthusiasm, and your own motivation.
So, I believe that success in any kind of business strongly depends on this: the first pillar is a personality, the second pillar is they are all competent and high-functioning, and then the third one is that they must be able to marshal in their own motivations.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 12:56
I like what you said about how ,if you are going to form a business with a few people, that you want to look at the composition of the personality, the competency that each person brings to the table. And whether they are high-functioning in that area. As well as the last piece, which is that each one of them is self-motivated because then you have a dynamic team which is ready to take on the challenges of running the business together.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 13:24
So, Jessica, could you share a challenge that you've faced, either in your personal life or in running your business, and how you were able to get out of that crisis? Crisis is something that people are talking about since COVID times, and so I want to be able to decode this with you.
Dr. Jessica Leong 13:42
So, I'd like to talk about personal crisis, followed by corporate crisis. My own personal crisis happened about 15 years ago when I was diagnosed with cancer. The diagnosis in itself could incapacitate you because of fear because you can catastrophise the diagnosis you have, and then begin to withdraw from all that you achieved. After the acute phase, I, too, went into the same fear, like many people who had cancer. But I find that within a short time, I was able to build up my confidence again, and trust in myself again, and then believe that I still have the ability to contribute, and also the ability to re-label the crisis, and not call it a 'crisis', but to call it a 'small setback'. Because if you call it a crisis, it means that you're gonna lose your balance, and then there's a disequilibrium and that word 'crisis' can be quite haunting, right? You can call it a small setback and also look at it as is an opportunity for looking after your physical health, being more mindful, looking at aspects of life, perhaps you have neglected.
So, it is almost like I see as a second opportunity to look after your physical self, your spiritual self, your emotional self, and your social self. So, that is one crisis that I emerged with a lot of pride that I was able to move on. It never stopped me from actually doing what I want to do.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 15:32
I really like what you have highlighted here for us. Number one is to reliable a crisis into a small setback, so that we can be empowered with how it shows up eventually. Number two is to also look at the setback as an opportunity to look at things that we may have forgotten, or neglected, or not considered in the past. And to actually make that part and parcel of our lives. What about that the second challenge that you had in your life that you were going to highlight?
Dr. Jessica Leong 16:03
COVID-19, I see as a universal storm. And what makes a difference between you and the other person is your mental resilience, whether or not you're able to still be optimistic, whether you're still able to see that the glass is not half empty; but it is half full. Whenever there is a crisis like that is not within your locus of control, tapping on your resources. Internal resource is your social, emotional, and mental resilience. But you also have to tap on your external resource that you can rely on family members, that you can actually tap on friendship, and also mentors. And don't be afraid to reach out. And the third thing is that to use this crisis to overcome the fear of integrating technology into your workplace. This is very important that will make a difference. The fourth thing is that to continue to see the rainbow even though there's thunder and storm. In one sentence, it is called a universal storm but we are in different boats. It also taught me humility, that in this storm, even when you're coping very well, it is to have the humility to understand that another person might not be coping as well as you are coping. And therefore not to use a yardstick of judgement, that people should be able to thrive or to judge that they should be able to cope with it. The first one I used was gratitude. The second one is 'compassion'.
Dr. Jessica Leong 17:58
The crisis taught me compassion. I see a difference between just having empathy, as opposed having compassion. To me, compassion is not just feeling what you feel, seeing what you see, and hearing what you hear; but wanting to do something, to reach out to help the other person. COVID-19 has given us many lessons that it need not be negative but it can also be positive. Because it can also bring about compassion. The only way to survive the universal storm is to have adjustment. In any big or small business, it is to embrace the idea of adjustment. If you do not adjust, it will lead to mental health issues, like anxiety and depression. Adjustment means the willingness to be versatile, to shift your pole, and to look at options, alternatives, and opportunities. So, I think this global pandemic, none of us were trained. We did have some lessons around SARS, and therefore, it is about learning on your feet.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 19:22
Between compassion and empathy, I'd never spent enough time to note the difference. But what I took away from your definition was that compassion was one step more. Not only did I demonstrate the necessary empathetic response to someone's situation, but I actually took action consistent with reaching out to that person. And I think that's the key point. Because empathy is maybe just the first level but truly, to have a collective kind of a community we need compassion. What is the top issue that Singaporeans face or struggle in life? And what would be your message to them?
Dr. Jessica Leong 20:13
If you asked me what is the number one problem, it is communication and relationship.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 20:23
Can you say a little bit more about that? Communication and relationship, that sounds very intriguing.
Dr. Jessica Leong 20:29
For example, when you work with customers, or you work within a team, or you work with your reporting officer, I think that if you can communicate in a healthy way- See, I think the biggest problem we have is, sometimes, unhealthy, and ineffective communication, that will lead to misunderstanding and that would also lead to rupture of the relationship. The universal problem would be communication because if you do not communicate effectively, there will be pockets of haemorrhage in a relationship. And once the relationship is impacted, trust is also taken away. So, to me, it doesn't matter how people present what problems they have when you really probe deeper into it. Many times, whatever problem that they might present, it is somehow, somewhat, connected to communication and relationship.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 21:32
Very insightful. And what can someone who is in their 20s, who's just starting out, do to develop their communication skills?
Dr. Jessica Leong 21:41
It is very important for young people to actually look at the three living skills that is so essential, especially if they want to run their own business. I think it is to begin to build up their communication competencies, because you can get better connection, you call that rapport. And once you have got communication competencies, there will be mutual respect, leading to rapport and relationship. Because you see, Dr. Ramesh, every relationship has a problem. When there is a problem, some people can go into two different routes. One would be to create fights, arguments, bitterness. On the other hand, we can actually synergize and co-create. If we are communicating competently, and there is respect, rapport, and relationship, we could actually work together collaboratively or synergistically co-create solutions, whenever there's a problem in the workplace or in the business.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 22:58
Learn communication competencies because with those competencies, you get better connection, rapport, and eventually these bloom into great relationships.
Dr. Jessica Leong 23:10
Yeah, and you can use the relationship to synergistically co-create solutions.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 23:16
Ah, right. great.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 23:21
So, let's move into a new topic. We want to know where are you in your spiritual journey'?
Dr. Jessica Leong 23:27
Probably a lot of people will not agree with me, I see spirituality as the state of well-being. And I think in order to have well-being, I'd like to create a metaphor of the chair with four legs.
Dr. Jessica Leong 23:43
I think, firstly, spirituality and well-being, for it to come into our life, we have to look after our physical self. For example, having sufficient sleep, and also resting sufficiently, eating wisely, drinking a lot of fluids, and also eating a lot of vegetables, grains, and fresh fruits. So, that's the physical. I also think that it's important to have the social leg, it is important to have family and also social network. We need friends. We need the family. And you must give time. The third leg will be the intellectual leg. For example, going on courses, upgrading, upskilling, and retraining so that your brain continues to be stimulated. And then as you go into your greying years, if your brain is very much exercised, and also very much stretched, the fear of Alzheimer's, the fear of all the diseases connecting to old age, it is not guaranteed that you won't have it, but at least you might reduce the probability. The last one is called the spiritual leg, to me, the spiritual leg is the ability to integrate with nature, and to enjoy a rose for a rose, not in the commercial sense, to bask in the glory of the Sun, to be able to read poems and books. And to be able to meditate, going to mindfulness exercises, do relaxation exercises, listen to music, and also watch very inspirational, like Chicken Soup for the Soul, inspirational movies, or videos. So, that's my definition of 'spirituality'.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 25:38
Wow. You've added a lot more dimension to that word called "spirituality" by helping us to see that if we looked at ourselves as a whole, a system, there is that physical, social, intellectual aspect of us. And all these aspects also have to be in harmony with that spiritual aspect where we feel that oneness with the environment and the universe. Thank you for making it simple to understand and yet, easy for me to focus my attention on what's important today. If let's say for instance if I'm cranky and upsetting people because I didn't sleep well, how can I be on a spiritual path?
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 26:21
How did you come to this classification of these four legs as part of one's well-being and therefore, spirituality?
Dr. Jessica Leong 26:30
When I had cancer, it was an attack on my physical self, and I realised that when my physical health, I thought I lost it, it affected my mental health. It also affected my social being, I started to withdraw. Emotionally you feel, because you fall down, you can't bounce back again.
Dr. Jessica Leong 26:50
So, I think that I was able to go through that horrendous experience at that time because I was able to define for myself the meaning of 'spirituality', that they are all interconnected and they are all interlaced, like the example you used. If you do not sleep, it will affect your concentration, and that will affect your mental health, and you make more mistakes. And when you make more mistakes, you cannot fulfil your KPI. And that will lead to a lot of mental health issue again- anxiety, depression, and so on. People who are able to get integrated with nature and learn breathing exercises, they are doing a lot to help themselves with spirituality.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 27:39
Wonderful. What is it a simple life for you? And how do you live that?
Dr. Jessica Leong 27:44
I think that, by default, you and I live in a complex life. And the only way to manage a complex life is to simplify life. Because if you join in the complexities, it can give you a lot of anxiety, and a lot of frustration and agitation. For example, even in a day-to-day decision, let's talk about being a boss, or you are the CEO of an organisation. We can begin to look at their roles and their responsibilities, responsibility, and begin to simplify them. So, it is our duty as we lead them to simplify their role so that we can take away the stressor that brings along with complexities. Once there are complexities, everything is intertwined and interlaced. But if you can simplify it, that is called to me 'healthy living'.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 28:44
Wonderful.
Dr. Jessica Leong 28:45
How I simplify my life is to even in my time management, I don't make it complex. I don't make it complex by putting in many itinerary in a week that I have. I look at my week, and I ask myself, "Do I have enough rest?" If I think I'm over asserting myself, then I make sure that Sunday would be a day that I could recuperate and so on. That's what I mean by simplifying it whenever you can because that would take away a lot of the stressors.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 29:19
Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. Can you use three words to describe state of 'thriving'? What's thriving mean to you?
Dr. Jessica Leong 29:27
Thriving is the ability to stay balanced. So, to thrive is number one, balance. Number two, do not amplify and catastrophise the events that come into our life. And the third thing would be forgiveness. The ability to forgive yourself for bad corporate decisions we made, bad personal decisions we made, and to forgive yourself that "I'm not perfect". That generosity to say that "I'm not perfect". Thriving is also when you're able to forgive yourself. Maybe over time, I think we can thrive better, if we can forgive others, we are able to let go for peace.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 30:19
Great, Jessica. That's such a useful guide on how to thrive in life. We all experience the highs and lows. But the most important thing is to stay balanced and deliberate in how we live, work and play.
Dr. Ramesh Ramachandra 30:34
Thank you, Jessica once again for sharing your personal experience and insights with our listeners today. It has been wonderful to catch up with you.
Ho Lai Yun 30:45
Thank you, Dr. Ramesh, and Dr. Leong, for sharing the special relationship that you have with each other, and your insights on the most important life skills and habits for thriving with our listeners.
Ho Lai Yun 30:56
Dr. Leong is not only an expert counsellor, psychotherapist and trainer, she's also a successful entrepreneur. So, if you're interested to learn more about how to nurture that entrepreneurial mindset, which can give us valuable life skills that will help us solve everyday problems, adapt to changes, manage risks, and create value in our work and our lives, do check out Dr. Ramesh's book, "The Big Jump into Entrepreneurship 2.0". You will find the Amazon.com link in the podcast description so you can easily click through to get your copy.
Ho Lai Yun 31:30
Next up, we have a very special guest, Mr. Mohamed Ismail Gafoor, who rose from delivering newspapers as a boy to becoming the CEO of Singapore's largest listed real estate company PropNex. Thank you for listening today. We look forward to having you join our next episode of Thriving in the Age of Disruption podcast.
Bio
Dr. Jessica Leong
Professional Qualifications & Credentials
- PhD Counselling Psychology, Australia
- MACounselling,UnitedKingdom
- MSc T.A. Psychotherapy, United Kingdom
- MSPS, Full Member Singapore Psychological Society
- Adjunct Teaching Fellow, Faculty of Health, Arts & Design, Swinburne
- University of Technology, Australia
- Director, Swinburne ECTA Programmes, Singapore
- Accredited Registered Counsellor & Psychotherapist (BACP, United Kingdom)
- and (PACFA, Australia)
- Registered Counsellor & Supervisor, Singapore Association for Counselling
- (SAC), Singapore
- Certified Clinical Teaching & Supervising Transactional Analyst with
- Psychotherapy Specialization UKATA Registered, United Kingdom
- Transactional Analysis Practitioner Instructor – TAPI (USATAA)
Dr Jessica Leong possesses both clinical and organisational experience and has served as a counsellor and psychotherapist in various organisations, including in an Institute of Higher Learning for over 25 years.
Jessica was awarded a scholarship to pursue a Masters degree in counselling at Keele University, UK, and was accorded the Gold Award in the “Excellence in Teaching” Convention.
She achieved the distinction of becoming the first certified Transactional Analyst in Singapore and was the President of the Transactional Analysis Association in Singapore for more than 20 years. Jessica is the only certified Clinical Teaching and Supervising Transactional Analyst in Singapore.
In February 1993, Jessica became the first Asian Transactional Analyst to be awarded the Goulding Award for Excellence in Transactional Analysis Theory and Practice. In the same year, she was also endorsed to teach and supervise Transactional Analysis trainees by the Training Certifying Council in 1993 (Minneapolis).
Jessica has been a visiting lecturer at Keele University in the UK, and she has taught Transactional Analysis at the Gerard Egan Annual Counselling Summer School at the College of Ripon & York St. John. She was also invited by The University of Hong Kong, Master of Social Sciences (Counselling), to teach Transactional Analysis in Psychotherapy.
She is the co-author of three TA books and has written several TA articles. Jessica has presented papers on Transactional Analysis at international conferences, and has also been an International Examiner for candidates seeking certification in Transactional Analysis. Jessica is also the editor for the International Transactional Analysis Associations Journal.
Jessica has taught and shared in many prestigious multi-national corporations, financial and educational institutions, private companies, hospitals and helping agencies, as well as statutory and government bodies.
She is the training and counselling consultant and director of JC Integra (TA) Pte. Ltd., and the Clinical Director of the Executive Counselling & Training Academy Pte. Ltd.
Jessica also provides employee counselling for multi-international companies, and is the CEO of the Berne TA Center Pte. Ltd.
